I used to blog with the most prolific Amway sychofant, ibofb (IBO Fight Back), aka David Steadson, aka David7/24. I also met him in person when Amway flew several of us to Prague, and he is as big of an idiot in person as online. Here’s his facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/david.steadson Notice on his page that he is married to http://www.facebook.com/micha.sobasnikov, but she shows him as merely her “friend.” This is typical of ibofb, he slices and dices the truth – in other words, lies. After being “banned” from his blog (twice!), I can thanksfully no longer communicate with him because of my settlement with Amway (and remember, neither can you, unless the communication has absolutely NOTHING to do with being involved with me and/or this blog). However, some of his recent posts on http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/ are simply too hilarious to pass up!
1. For example, http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/the-disgusting-censorship-of-howard-megdal-emma-span-sports-on-earth-and-capital-new-york/ he complains about the same type of censorship he subjected me to! I didn’t see the specific “errors” he claimed to post on the other sites.
2. Another example, http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-victims/, he talks about how few former IBOs signed up to be compensated. What he “neglects” to mention is most class action lawsuits result in a very low percentage of participation. What is unique about the Amway settlement is most former IBOs:
1. Only qualify for some Amway products,
2. Want NOTHING to remind them of Amway,
3. Are too embarrassed having Amway products in their house,
4. Didn’t have a choice to be compensated with cash instead of Amway products, and
5. Didn’t keep the records required for compensation for tools and large losses, etc.
While Amway didn’t admit guilt in the official settlement, we all know a company doesn’t take 7 years delaying a court case and paying $155 MM because they are innocent, except in ibofb’s village idiot world.
3. In yet another example, http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/do-99-of-amway-distributors-lose-money-part-1/#comments, the Village Idiot takes on the issue of whether 99% of IBOs lose money. Note he does NOT try to quantify the actual percentage, but merely rants and raves about the differences between math and statistics. While he makes some valid points, he does NOT disprove the original statement. I concede one can find examples of low level IBOs not being scammed by an ATS system making a net profit, the REAL issue is whether those getting scammed in an ATS environment, which makes up the vast majority of what IBOs are subjected to. The 2 data points I am aware of that were analyzed, presented in a legal context and NOT challenged by Amway are the Wisconsin AG and UK lawsuits, which can be found here: http://stoptheamwaytoolscam.wordpress.com/what-is-the-basis-for-the-99-level-of-ibos-losing-money/. Note that the Wisconsin AG studied ONLY Directs (now called Platinums) and they were LOSING an average of $900/year! The UK analysis resulted in far more than 99% losing money, which removes the math vs. statistics argument. SLAM!!! Since the UK no longer allows tool profit, the percentage of UK IBOs making a profit should be considerably more than 1%.
In summation, the answer to the question is no, 99% of IBOs do not lose money , because the number is GREATER than 99%! Of course, one has to exclude the statistically small yet result-influencing IBOs who are NOT being scammed by an ATS system. LOL
Here’s another example of Steadson getting caught lying, not to mention his usual “tactic” of trying to change the subject. Note how he states I am wrong, but provides ZERO evidence of my “error.” On the other hand, I listed several specific examples of how he is wrong, and therefore a LIAR: http://english.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/contentView.do?contentId=14456079&tabId=1&programId=11565538 LOL
Here (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/welcome-to-the-truth-about-amway/#comments), ibofb does a “wonderful” job of not responding to a question today, notice how ibofb doesn’t write a single word directed towards the ATS, the central theme of Vincent’s comment:
Vincent, a couple of years ago Amway did a special presentation to IBOs who had qualified Diamond every year for 20+ years (or was it 30?). There’s been numerous senior level IBOs recently die, effectively of advanced age. There’s been numerous other IBOships recognized as now being third generation.
There’s ways to build sustainable businesses, and there’s ways to build the business fast. They’re often not compatible! I’d suggest that not being honest and transparent and working with integrity is incompatible with a sustainable business too.
So if you want a sustainable Amway business, follow the Amway leaders that have done so. There’s plenty of them!
I simply can’t make this stuff up! I love playing virtual whack-a-mole with ibofb, here’s another example: http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2013/08/07/jim-dornan-amway-legend-passes/#comment-37192 These comments have since been taken down, even though other comments that are FAR off-topic were left posted, such as impeaching Obummer and Ron Paul’s radio show. Such is life while educating others about the ATS.
The liar here is Steadson. When we met years back I told him this, He showed me a “top secret” cassette tape scam profit ONLY document on red paper, and I had no idea whether it was authentic or not. However, it did NOT include book profit, the various meetings profit, web site profit, voice mail profit, etc. so his “hard data” proved his “thesis” (lies, consisting of partial truths) wrong, including as it pertains to Network 21, and he has chosen to completely ignore those facts and continue to spread his lies of omission, just like the upline LCKs and Amway do as well. It called RICO fraud.
Steadson is the proven liar. I was talked into shaking his hand by another attendee, which I thoroughly regret doing, because he plays these same stunts on his blog, which I am proud to be “banned” from, as it was almost a COMPLETE waste of time. At least I almost totally ignored him for the remainder of the visit to Prague and enjoyed myself, because I already knew he is was a LIAR. LOL
And be sure to check out how idiotic and “special” Steadon is, he is the only individual on the planet with an entire thread reserved just for him!http://stoptheamwaytoolscam.wordpress.com/r-my-favorite-amway-village-idiot-ibofb/ LOL
1/19/2014 – Here’s a post from here: http://www.amwaytalk.com/Thread-Greetings-from-the-Caribbean?pid=26449#pid26449, the problem is Deb isn’t in Amway, she sold a business she inherited years ago, IBOFightBack and Bridgette have teeny tiny businesses, but haven’t responded to these falsehoods for several days! Plus, the second post shows how little this person knows what a huge liar IBOFightBack is! LOLGreetings from the Caribbean2014-01-17, 04:20 PMPost: #1
Joined: Jan 2014
Greetings from the CaribbeanGood day everyoneJust wanted to introduce myself to this forum.
I’ve been browsing for a couple days and decided to register to keep up-to-date with everything going on.
I’ve taken special notice of Deb, IBOFightBack & Bridgett.
You guys seem to have a lot of knowledge and some huge businesses.I’m looking forward to be surrounded by all of your positivity!2014-01-18, 03:05 PMPost: #2
Joined: Dec 2013
RE: Greetings from the CaribbeanHey,Welcome to the forum.
I’ new as well and have huge respect to IBOFightBack.Cheers
Kris from London
What an IDIOT! Steadson and his sycophants don’t understand why Amway wants him to take down Amway Wiki! Because it’s a cornucopia of information for regulator and lawyers showing Amway is a scam, what a bunch of abject IDIOTS! LOL: http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-legal-wants-me-to-shut-down-amway-wiki/#comments
Well, that only took half of a decade! Steadson finally put out Part 2 of his “the LCKs don’t make that much from the tools” lies. I’ll respond to his post point by point, because that’s just the kind of guy I am: http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/part-ii-do-diamonds-make-most-of-their-money-from-selling-tools/#comments
Back in 2009 I wrote a post Let’s Talk About Tools Part I, beginning a conversation about an area that has been of some controversy in the Amway world – the promotion and sale of Business Support Materials or BSM. >>> SOME controversy?
After a mere 5 year break I’m finally here to talk about Part II – Do Diamonds make most of their money from selling tools? >>> This may be the last accurate statement for the rest of this fairy tale story.
Just today I saw a claim from an MLM critic that (in 2004) “the best of the best (Diamonds) were earning $250k/yr, but only $60,000 from sales/downline sales.” >>> No source, no naming of the person making the statement. However, even my former, low level Diamond Bruce Anderson said he made about 2/3s of his $350,000/year from the tools for the last few years as an IBO, which means he was making a bit over $100,000 from Amway and over $200,000 from the ATS, and he was FAR from the best of the best. Bruce told me on the telephone several years ago that he was a qualified Diamond for only a couple of years, and was an Emerald for most of his scamming career.
He was claiming that while Amway Diamonds and above were making more than $250,000/yr, only about $60,000 of that was from the sale of Amway products through their network – the rest from the sale of “tools” – books, CDs, and seminar tickets. >>> This is easy to believe, as long as he wasn’t a qualified Diamond, and this site provides numerous examples that are statements made directly by those who were making the ATS profit.
It’s not an unusual claim. >>> It’s also not an inaccurate statement.
Amway critic “Joecool” regularly makes similar claims, and former IBO Scott Johnson (aka Tex) is absolutely obsessed with the idea, commenting about “Stop the Amway Tool Scam” on virtually any news article or website that mentions Amway. >>> I am obsessed with the truth and I am obsessed with keeping others from being ripped off in terms of money and time. I think this is a worthy pursuit.
So is there any truth to this claim? >>> Of course there is, it’s all over this site!
As I point out in Part I, successful Amway IBOs can and do earn money from (1) the production and resale of training products and services to Amway organisations (2) the sale and distribution of tools through ones own downline and (3) by selling their services as professional speakers. >>> The issue is also that they lie about the amount they make.
So how much do they make? >>> Review this site and see for yourself.
Several years ago I and a number of other Amway bloggers were invited to participate in a panel discussion with Amway staff. >>> Oh no, a second accurate statement in the same post!
One of the invitees was the tool-profit obsessed Scott Johnson, so I decided to see if I could get some hard data and information about how much Diamonds made from BSM sales. >>> And you ended up getting very little.
I emailed all the various “support organisations” I could find contact information for, including Britt WorldWide (BWW), eFinity, INA, Network 21, Yager Internet Services and others to see if they would share some information. >>> Interesting, because I couldn’t find an email for Yager when I was looking to them for support after the Woodward fiasco.
Unfortunately only one of them was willing. >>> Please raise your hand if you’re surprised. I am, I’m surprised ANY of them provided feedback.
For confidentiality reasons I won’t name them, but they’re a very significant and large group. >>> As I recall, it was N21, his own upline scammers.
For this company, qualified Amway Platinums and above could earn a monthly volume rebate on the BSM purchased by their Amway organisation. >>> Most do, and at the Platinum level, it isn’t multiple times more than their Amway gross profit.
CDs for example sold for a retail price of $7. >>> CDs vary between $7-10 the last time I checked. WWDB has them for $3.00 or so, but you have to order them from a website that costs $50/month.
However, just like with Amway, there was an increasing discount (paid as a rebate) for larger volumes, as follows – >>> You don’t get paid a rebate for what someone else buys. This is profit, NOT a rebate. At least Steadson didn’t try to pass this chart off as ALL of the tool profit like he did in Prague. LOL
0-499 0 500-999 0.50 1000-1999 0.75 2000-3999 1.00 4000-5999 1.20 6000-7999 1.40 8000-9999 1.60 10000-14999 1.80 15000-19999 2.00 20000-29999 2.20
A similar rebate scale works for tickets to seminars. For example, qualified Emeralds and above earned the following rebates on tickets to major Weekend Seminars – >>> Same comment as above for CDs, this isn’t a rebate, it’s profit.
0-49 0 50-149 5.00 150-249 10.00 250-499 15.00 500+ 20.00
The schedule works like the bonus brackers of Amway, so a Diamond earing at the “WES 250″ bracket would most likely be “paying out” of their bonus to at least a couple of Emeralds. >>> I don’t think there’s enough differential, and there’s too much money in the kitty, for any sort of “paying out” to downline Emeralds.
A Founders Platinum with a volume rebate of 75 cents might be paying out 50 or even 75 cents of that to another downline Platinum. >>> This makes ZERO sense, as the Platinums are paid to compensate for travel costs, something I don’t have an issue with, IF they are honest about it, as well as how much the higher pin levels make.
In addition this organisation pays speakers to present at major functions. >>> I don’t one that doesn’t.
Airfaires, hotels, and a per diem for expenses are paid, along with a speakers fee. >>> Imagine that, the only people that don’t pay for airfare, hotels, have a per diem, etc., are the ones getting paid to be there.
This fee averages about $3250. >>> Higher pin levels get paid MUCH more than that, into 6 figures.
Now, just like with Amway, there are huge differences between organisations. >>> Not that huge, except for counties like the UK, which totally banned the ATS, and India, which has tool price limits FAR below the normal prices, assuming these countries enforce the rules.
A Diamond can have 6 platinums all in the US, or thousands of platinums spread around the world. >>> That’s true, but not germane to this discussion. I’m not interested in the wild outlying examples, just the averages.
So there can be huge differences in their Amway income, and huge differences in the volume of BSM materials they move through their organisation. >>> This is true and also not applicable, except as a distraction to the main topic, the ATS.
But how does the BSM income compare to Amway income? >>> That’s what this site is all about, I suggest you read it.
Well, in 2007 the average North American Emerald earned around $70,000 from Amway. >>> Keep in mind this applies to QUALIFIED Emeralds, and there are far fewer of these than those wearing the Emerald pin.
The average North American Emerald in this organisation in 2007 earned around $7,000 from BSM rebates and speakers fees combined. >>> Wow, just throw a number out there with absolutely ZERO basis. Typical Steadson.
The average Emerald had “system” or “tool” income of around 10% of their Amway income. >>> Put a lie in bold, and it’s STILL a lie.
In 2007 the average North American Diamond earned around $155,000 from Amway. >>> Again, QUALIFIED Diamond, and there aren’t nearly as many of these as those with Diamond pins walking around.
The average North American Diamond in this organisation in 2007 earned around $23,000 from BSM rebates and speakers fees combined. >>> Another number with ZERO basis.
The average Diamond had “system” or “tool” income of around 15% of their Amway income. >>> Yes, it is STILL a lie in bold lettering.
Now, this data is now 7+ years old and it’s important to note a few things. >>> It’s old, but it hasn’t changed for DECADES.
First of all, different BSM companies calculate their rebate systems in different ways. >>> The differences are negligible, and still result in about the same losses to the downline, so the main differences are how they divvy up the ATS spoils.
I’m told for example that in the past some BSM companies paid their rebates not based on volume, but based on the pin level they had achieved. >>> Oh yes, the old “I’m told” routine. I actually agree with this, and haven’t seen anything that this has changed. In fact, it is almost necessary in order to keep the higher pins at the “lifestyle they have become accustomed to.”
So someone who had qualified Diamond received the Diamond rebate level – even if their volumes had dropped and they were no longer qualifying as an Amway Diamond. >>> Steadson means in most cases.
Different groups also have different numbers of CDs and meetings they encouraged their groups to attend. >>> Minor differences, and another diversion.
I’ve heard of groups that encouraged the members to buy as many as 10 CDs a week. >>> Now it’s the “I’ve heard” routine, and am not aware of this level of consumption, 3 is the highest I’ve seen, assuming you don’t count ordering extra tools for prospects, for prospecting, to have extra on hand in the event the downline grows quickly, etc., so yes, 10 sounds about right, at least in the short term.
Others are 4 or 5 a month. >>> I’m sure they make up for it in other areas.
Obviously if you’re selling a lot more CDs then you’re making a lot more money from this income source. >>> Correct, but it also depends on the PRICE of the CDs.
Similarly some speakers are far more in demand (or have far more personal desire) to be on the speaking circuit, and this earn more from that income source. >>> Again, I’m not interested in the exceptions, the exceptions have little impact on the overall scam, so this is another diversion.
There are also other differences in how the profits (if any) of the production companies are used and/or distributed. >>> If any! LOL There probably are differences, but these differences again don’t have much impact on the losses for the downline, but only dictate how the pot of ATS profit is split up.
So yes, some Diamonds, in some organisations may earn more from their BSM related activites than from Amway. >>> False. Substitute the word “most” for “some.”
But this is unusual, not the norm! >>> This is the norm, or Rich DeVos wouldn’t have complained about it in 1983 AND we would see a much larger range in tool prices, and we don’t.
Furthermore, in 2007/2008 Amway implemented a whole new accreditation system for companies that supplied BSM to Amway IBOs. >>> And I was told by Amway the accreditation had NOTHING to do with the profit levels allowed.
As part of this Amway required the companies to allow an independent marketing firm to study their compensation plans for fairness and Amway’s approval. >>> Amway also told me this “fairness” does not include disclosure of tool profit to the downline that is funding it.
Many changes had to be made – including moving from an “pin level” based rebate to a volume rebate. >>> I’m not aware of this being a requirement.
On top of that, Amway also drastically increased a range of bonuses. >>> Minor changes.
In 2007 the average Diamond earned around $155,000. In 2014 the figure is over $600,000. >>> That’s interesting, because Steadson said the average FOUNDERS Diamond made a bit over $600,000/year in 2012, and there’s a HUGE difference between a Diamond and Founders Diamond income. The real figure is about $150,000.
In the past, cases of Amway Diamonds and above earning more from “tools” and “the system” than from Amway occurred but were not common. >>> It’s VERY common for Emeralds to make 2-5 times more from the tools compared to Amway, and Diamonds and above make even more.
In 2014 it’s virtually non-existent. >>> So, here we have another isolated statement with ZERO evidence to back it up. At least Steadson is consistent!
No, in general Diamonds do not make more money from tools than from Amway. >>> Yes, in general Diamonds make several times more money from tools than from Amway, and denying it in bold font is STILL a lie.
As usual, nothing new from Steadson, just more lies. LOL